Carbs, not dietary fat, cause obesity? (A discussion of fat loss/gain and not total body weight)

  • Jessica - Mighty Max

    We were both talking pure scale weight, as has been clarified.  I'm not sure why you're saying I was saying something I clearly wasn't.  Even with pure scale weight, there are other factors to consider.  I will clarify again that I agree calories are the main factor in weight loss.  I'm not sure why it must be explained over and over.  I am not disagreeing and never have.  

    We will have to agree to disagree. You keep stating it the main factor with qualifiers that it is not the only factor. In a pure mathematical sense in pure scale weight it is, in fact, the only factor.  Not the most efficient maybe, or healthiest or sane way to do it. But mathematically in vs out is an undeniable truth. If it wasn't, people would never starve to death and all the charities dedicated to famine victims would be out of work.

  • Putting it in bold doesn't make it so.  There are other factors.  

    Your example is ridiculous.  It doesn't show anything other than not enough makes you starve to death.  No one said otherwise.  

    Jessica Mighty Max ~ 2013 Body-for-LIFE Champion ~ Champion is a VERB!

  • BCbill

    We will have to agree to disagree. You keep stating it the main factor with qualifiers that it is not the only factor. In a pure mathematical sense in pure scale weight it is, in fact, the only factor.  Not the most efficient maybe, or healthiest or sane way to do it. But mathematically in vs out is an undeniable truth. If it wasn't, people would never starve to death and all the charities dedicated to famine victims would be out of work.

     

    I thought it was pretty plain, and I'm not an expert, but I hired one.  This is one of the FIRST things he stated to me, and I verified it with my doctor. 

    I think most understood what you said, and if they didn't you clarified it.  No harm, no fool.....

     

    Ok, back to work....good thing it's a slow day.  LOL

     

     

     

     

     

  • I have also hired experts and they strongly disagree.  I have been told otherwise by some very well trained, certified and degreed experts.  This will harm someone and has.  

    The ONLY way calories in versus out is the ONLY factor is if you are also factoring that my body may burn calories at a greater or lesser rate and to account for that.  You lose more when you sleep more (generally speaking) and to account for that  To account for lean body weight and it's impact on caloric burn.  To basically account for every factor (and I doubt we could ever come up with a full list) that impacts caloric burn or retention.  If in theory we could and we did then yes, calories in versus out would be correct because it would then be ACTUAL calories in versus calories out.  My point is and has been this.

    The posts in no way indicated an appreciation for that.

    Jessica Mighty Max ~ 2013 Body-for-LIFE Champion ~ Champion is a VERB!

  • BMR and RMR are just estimations and guess work unless you get your metabolism tested.

    Fat Loss, how can we modify macro-nutrient ratios? Total body weight being unimportant in this scenario.

    More carbs?

    Less Carbs?

    What about fat?

    Does dietary fat cause an increase in stored body fat (what about with or without reduced carbs)?

    “"Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out..." - Robert J. Collier”

    http://thisisbryanok.blogspot.com/

  • Bryan,

    It would stand to reason that excessive dietary fat would cause a weight gain, but if we are not talking crazy lab test and instead talking about reasonable terms then essential fat will not cause you to store more fat, but instead just the opposite.  It's important to know when to have it.  For instance, I do not have my healthy fats in the morning after cardio.  That's when I want my system super fast and fat slows it.  I actually do want slow and steady during the evening, when I have my fats.  

    Calories.... if talking on intake then that would not be true, that it matters when you have your fat.  If talking actual (taking all factors into account) then it is true.  

    Carbs... there isn't one answer.  It depends on your goals, your body, etc.  Studies show that the leanest people have about 2/3 carbs.  Isn't that interesting?  Then again, many lose a lot on Paleo.  I am personally a huge advocate of carb cycling, but that's certainly not necessary for good results.  I think you're looking for "the" answer and sadly, no one has that.  

    Ps - You are right about BMR and RMR.  When of the best things I did for myself was to do performance testing, which included RMR.  My results weren't typical and likely because I am mesomorphic.  I wasn't eating enough and after increasing my calories was able to then finally lose more weight.  It basically kicked my slow metabolism in gear once my body wasn't so scared.  I might be an outlier on this one though.  I think I am.

    Jessica Mighty Max ~ 2013 Body-for-LIFE Champion ~ Champion is a VERB!

  • I think for what you're personally seeking, a round of Paleo followed by carb cycling would be great.  That's really just a personal opinion.  On this one I've got no facts to back it, just knowledge about your goals and those types of programs.  

    Paleo concerns me because I don't see the issue with good quality grains in moderation.  I've yet to see why they're so bad.  We don't really know how much cavemen had because although we have bone testing, grains breakdown much more quickly so the evidence might have literally disappeared.  Even if they didn't have it then what does that prove?  Were they the picture of body excellence?  Also, they had periods of famine and storing.  Is that what we really want to do (I'm talking on the level that they did it)?

    I do agree with grass fed, healthy fats and cutting out the processed and refined crap.  I agree that excess insulin is a real issue.  I agree that we should limit dairy, if we must have any at all.  Those milk commercials are awesome, but no, I don't think it does a body good.  To be fair, many disagree with me on this.

    A lot of what Paleo advocates makes good sense.  I just think it goes too extreme. 

    I do better when I have brown rice.  It might be that my body is just different.  I process complex carbs well.  I have more energy and actually have better weight loss results.  I am sure there are people who really need to avoid it. 

    I also think we train our body to use what we give it.  That's why I'm not always sold when people say something is working for them.  Maybe if they did something else and gave it an adjustment period, then something else would work better. 

     

    Jessica Mighty Max ~ 2013 Body-for-LIFE Champion ~ Champion is a VERB!

  • BryanL

    BMR and RMR are just estimations and guess work unless you get your metabolism tested.

    Fat Loss, how can we modify macro-nutrient ratios? Total body weight being unimportant in this scenario.

    More carbs?

    Less Carbs?

    What about fat?

    Does dietary fat cause an increase in stored body fat (what about with or without reduced carbs)?

    All I can tell you is my personal experience, and what my trainer has taught me.  I have been eating 40/40/20, but only because it does the following:

    • keeps me from being hungry (less carbs)
    • helps me build muscle better (extra protein)
    • helps me to eat better (less fat)

    I started out ding 60/20/20, but have also done 50/30/20 and the amount of weight loss was the same even with doing 40/40/20, as long as my calories were close to my BMR.  I try not to eat too much fat, ie. over 20%, because you should be eating fiber and protein, but you certainly need fat.  Carbs, in moderation because you need the energy, but if you eat too many, you neglect your fat and protein.  I eat more protein now, because I want definition, and I want to build more lean muscle.  When I was eating less protein, I was simply skinny just losing fat.  I wasn't loosing muscle, but I wasn't gaining muscle either. You have to think about this, when you work the muscle but want it to grow, you have to feed it much like yourself.  So to feed it, you need protein, especially for muscle repair and growth.

    The BFL goes by 40/40/20 I believe (read the book year ago), but if you do 45/40/15, I doubt it will hamper your weight loss.  Don't know if that helps, if not blame Vince my illustrious CPT, who is a 5 time Bodybuilding champion!  LOL

    We are all in this together... *smiles*

     

  • Brian,

    Here is a couple articles that hopefully you will find worth the time regarding your questions

    www.bodyrecomposition.com/.../ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html

    www.leangains.com/.../Low%20Carb%20Diets

  • no one is getting anywhere in here....

    anyone that knows anything about nutrition knows that it must be individualized.

    So for Bryan, give paleo, or as I like to call it, contest prep diet lol....give it a shot and if it works to get you to your leanest then that is what you should be doing.

    Bill, if eating 3 meals a day gets you to your best, then keep at it.

    Jessica, if eating 6 times a day and carb cycling gets you to where you wanna go, then keep doing it.

    There is no end all be all way to nutrition.

    Remember my article on Lynn and how he ate 9 meals a day and he ate carbs with every meal and spent on avg 3 hours a day....Well I just had a long conversation with Everett Herbert another one of the original 10 champs. He ate paleo. He ate about 3-4 times a day....eggs and bacon for breakfast, chicken breast and vegetables for lunch, some red meat at night and he said he used whey protein to make sure he got 250-300g of protein a day. He did very brief workouts 1-2 times a week and his cardio which was done 1-2 times a week for was 4-6 minutes of very high intensity.

    My point? Two different people. Two completely different nutrition plans. Two completely different workout routines and they both achieved great physiques.

    It must be individualized.

  • Bryan

    It's also important to ask yourself what you're willing to do.  For instance, if you increase protein to more than the BFL 40%, you should also increase your number of meals.  You can only process so much at once.  

    Paleo is more likely 50/20/30.  It focuses on those fats.  Make sure you are choosing good options for this that span your 3, 6 and 9 options.  Focus of course on Omega 3 and in the form of EPA and DHA.  Fish oil and you need a good relationship.  

    So... balance what you're willing and what you want to come up with a plan that works for you.  

    Jessica Mighty Max ~ 2013 Body-for-LIFE Champion ~ Champion is a VERB!

  • I'm fortunate in that I gain muscle very fast.  However, I can lose and gain weight fast.  I have had an athletic build half of my life.  I have to watch what I eat, but if I do diet the weight melts off.

    I would say like Charlie, do what's best for you.  Since you are doing BFL, I suggest you go with that.  

    Oops..sorry if that's not the best answer.

  • Just an FYI for all Paleo is not actually a low carb diet as you can eat fruits and vegetables and I prob get my pounds of lean body mass in grams of carbs.

    I agree Charlie, It must be individualized.

    patriciaae99- I have been eating 40/40/20 in the past and it work until I plateua around 175 lbs 15% body fat. Also when I ate 45/40/15 I was hungry due to a lack of fat..

    Jessica, I remember seeing a study that you can't process more than 25-30g of protein at a time and anything over that is just wasted. My main fats are from eggs, almonds, and avacoda with some fish oil. I have seen you can 60% of your calories from fat according to some people. Paleo is just a guideline I am using to model my nutrition using BFL philosphy and basically I know brown rice and other grains are not bad but I am trying to go without for a while

    “"Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out..." - Robert J. Collier”

    http://thisisbryanok.blogspot.com/

  • The best answer here is one that supports Bryan's needs, goals and questions.  This takes into account body type, willingness to do certain things and best practice research.  

    Bryan - Did I read you say you were an endomorphic body type?  Is it that you want a lower body fat % or that you want to bulk up?  That would also be a huge factor.  

    Jessica Mighty Max ~ 2013 Body-for-LIFE Champion ~ Champion is a VERB!

  • What Paleo are you following?  I know there are many.  I always understood it to be lower carb.  (not no carb, but lower)

    Jessica Mighty Max ~ 2013 Body-for-LIFE Champion ~ Champion is a VERB!